go away lions and ecology ([info]shati) wrote,
@ 2008-12-11 09:25:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend  Next Entry
Current mood:why am i awake?
Current music:my other suggestion is don't pull all-nighters to finish your essays

strangely my eyes are not perfect circles
I'm not actually posting about the whitewashed casting of the Avatar live action movie, although it is BS on any number of levels, because I'm busy moping over the news. But I'm sick of seeing people say that cartoon characters Don't Look Asian (so many times I have seen this! soon I will be doing shots), so I am writing about that instead. Even though I'm not sure anyone who's said that is on my flist. I'm like Don Quixote except I post at windmills? Or maybe I just lecture the windmills on Cartoon Art 101.

Matt Thorn's essay that I think says everything I'm going to

My Really Short Version



No human being on this planet looks like this. For starters, most of us have noses and ears. If you think this smiley face looks white, or doesn't look Asian, that is all you. If you think it's a dude, that's all you. If you think it's an adult: you are still the one bringing that to the table. It's a symbol of a human face, and there is not anywhere near enough detail to go any further without making assumptions.

If I take that smiley face and, for example, animate it writing a short letter to its mother in Korean, while wearing a hanbok and humming the South Korean National Anthem, and you think the smiley face definitively fails to look Korean in such a way that it would be perfectly reasonable for somebody to decide that the best actor to represent the smiley in a live action film would be white, you might want to reconsider what you're bringing to the table. My suggestion: if it involves expectations like squinty eyes, stop.

I wanted to work the phrase "so's your FACE" into this but I am just too sleepy.


(48 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]innerbrat
2008-12-11 02:59 pm UTC (link)
Actually, that picture looks exactly like me.

So therefore I must play Sokka.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-11 03:08 pm UTC (link)
I cannot argue with your impeccable logic. Foiled again!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]innerbrat
2008-12-11 03:10 pm UTC (link)
*composes letter to MNS*

International moviestar fame, here I come!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-11 03:12 pm UTC (link)
Uh oh. The test screening audiences say they want somebody with pupils. :(

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]furikku
2008-12-11 03:13 pm UTC (link)
Solution: pupils contacts.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]innerbrat
2008-12-11 03:15 pm UTC (link)
I can wear contacts! Shhheeesh.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]gao
2008-12-11 03:00 pm UTC (link)
Shati is smart and right about everything, but especially about essays.

I mean, cartoons.

No, I mean essays.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-11 03:10 pm UTC (link)
No no, you should never say "Shati is smart and right about everything," because then I have to say something like "John should give me a pony" or "John should write that thing we don't talk about with the Dark Future Presidents."

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]gao
2008-12-11 03:15 pm UTC (link)
You saw I made the first eight pages of that, right?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-11 03:19 pm UTC (link)
Why do you taunt me when I am sleep deprived and easily misled?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]gao
2008-12-11 03:41 pm UTC (link)
And I should totally give you a pony! You would be a great pony owner. I just don't have one.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-11 03:47 pm UTC (link)
I would be a terrible pony owner. I would spend hours trying to get it to reenact the Kate Beaton pony comics. Also I would whine about mucking out its stall.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]gao
2008-12-11 03:52 pm UTC (link)
All ponies secretly long to be Pony.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-12 09:08 pm UTC (link)
I secretly long to be Pony.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]gao
2008-12-12 09:10 pm UTC (link)
Maybe you secretly ARE Pony. It would explain a lot.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-12 09:12 pm UTC (link)
*munches on your shoes*

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]thursdays_son
2008-12-11 03:17 pm UTC (link)
No human being on this planet looks like this.

The Stick People lobby is going to be SO PISSED at you...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-11 03:19 pm UTC (link)
The Stick People have limbs, dude! Do you see any limbs up there?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]thursdays_son
2008-12-11 03:27 pm UTC (link)
Oh, worse. Now, you have the Lobby for Stick Persons with Extreme Amputations on your case.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-11 03:45 pm UTC (link)
If there were actual animate smiley faces in the world, I would be extra screwed. Way back when I was like 14 or so, my mother installed a game on the computer that was just a big smiley face that you could murder with different weapons. Like, the whole program was just "click on the knife, and then click on the smiley, and it will be stabbed to death and make this face: X_X."

Uh, that'll be your gruesome and out of the blue anecdote for today!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]adiva_calandia
2008-12-11 04:41 pm UTC (link)
!!! I think I remember that game!

... >.>;

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-12 09:07 pm UTC (link)
Seriously? Every few years I remember its existence, and then everyone just stares at me. (Or they say "that explains a lot," but whatever.)

... It was pretty twisted.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]furikku
2008-12-11 03:26 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I'm always finding myself trying to explain to people, "No, no, the Japanese look at animu characters- even the ones with 'blonde' hair, and they think 'Japanese.' No, see, they interpret it as black hair." And then I just kind of give up if nobody listens to me.

I've been working again on drawing not-white folks, aided by these lovely tutorials, and I keep ending up with, "OK, I've drawn all this, and they still read as White to me until I add coloration." I am pretty sure this is from me being raised in a majority-white area, rather than lack of skill on my part, since I have a similar thing looking at the actual tutorial examples.

I GUESS MY POINT in this giant ramble is that people actually don't look all that different most of the time, and it's really hard to portray the differences without getting into creepy caricature territory. The end.

(PS: I love reading the manga "Monster" because it's so fun seeing caricatures of white people from another culture's perspective. Well, and it's a good comic, but.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-11 03:41 pm UTC (link)
There are Japanese people with blonde hair, too. I am thinking of dyed hair, but most of the white blondes I know are dyed, so ...

It is complicated! (So's your FACE. Whoo, I got it in. I think I should go to bed.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]furikku
2008-12-11 04:51 pm UTC (link)
My face is very complicated.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-12 09:08 pm UTC (link)
And we even circled back to the theme of this post!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]rushin_doll
2008-12-11 05:10 pm UTC (link)
I also love Monster!

This obviously has nothing to do with anything,
Ana

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]bookelfe
2008-12-11 04:04 pm UTC (link)
3/4 of the time you make a post I just want to say 'word!' and nod my head sternly in a definitive and encouraging manner! This is encouraging for laziness . . . if not helpful for being articulate myself . . . but why do I need to be articulate when you will do it for me SO.

(Obvs. this is one of those times in case it was not clear.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-12 08:52 pm UTC (link)
Really? I feel like 3/4 of my posts are like, "Today I saw a duck!"

(I actually did see a duck today. A whole flock of ducks.)

[info]deadbrowalking has a bingo set for the whole mess. It's cathartic!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]bookelfe
2008-12-12 10:03 pm UTC (link)
Well, I also want to say 'word' to the sentiment that seeing ducks is a pleasant and exciting thing to happen on a day, so even if it is true that does not necessarily change matters!

(I am jealous! I have seen no ducks yet today. :O Also, I seem to have the perfect icon to use for being sad about a lack of ducks in my life, go me.)

. . . dude, I need that catharsis, thank you! *reads; throws YET MORE THINGS AT HOLLYWOOD, but in a cathartic sort of way!*

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]sparrow_wings
2008-12-11 05:41 pm UTC (link)
*raises hand* I think that smiley face looks like a delicious cookie! Also that you are correct.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-12 08:53 pm UTC (link)
Cookies are much better than faces anyway! I approve.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]sainfoin_fields
2008-12-11 06:16 pm UTC (link)
What an excellent link that I will now bludgeon the entire internet over the head with! Um... or not, but thank you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-12 08:54 pm UTC (link)
I read it years ago and was like "whoo, articulation of concepts I have been previously unable to express!" so I'm glad to pass it along!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]shoroko
2008-12-11 06:22 pm UTC (link)
I don't really get the "they don't look Asian" argument for Avatar especially because: a) yes they do, b) because having this fantasy world based predominantly on South and East Asian cultural themes be full of white people makes so much more sense, c) yes they do, d) there are characters for whom it can't even be said "well, they're pale" being cast with Caucasian actors, and e) no, seriously, they do.

And I mean, in terms of anime generally, a lot of anime seems to operate in a world where blue, purple, and pink are totally normal, natural hair colors, or really, where depiction styles are following a preexisting construct, not striving to be completely "realistic" in form, makes the whole idea of attempting judge ethnicity based on specific physical traits just... not very useful. Whether they're reading books in Chinese or talking about how they live in Tokyo might be a more helpful clue.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-12 09:05 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, it's a lot more surprising to me with Avatar because it's, you know, made in the US. And the artists clearly put thought into creating a visual style that would make it clear to white Americans that the characters weren't white without using major visual stereotypes. And the characters do look Inuit and East Asian! People are saying "oh, but Character X has light skin!" which, um, many East Asian people do.

Anime does have racial visual markers (varying by artist, obviously, but still) -- just different ones from the US. Like, I have no Manga Expert Hat, but I can tell when characters are being drawn in a stereotypical Chinese way (as opposed to the US, where Japanese and Chinese are lumped together). But yeah, purple hair! Stylization!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]jbramx2
2008-12-20 11:03 am UTC (link)
Was it really made in the US? I thought it a Korean animation Studio that ya know...drew the pictures and put it together. (yes, written and designed by americans...still produced by Koreans)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]dietotaku
2009-01-11 05:12 am UTC (link)
several korean animation studios, actually, but nonetheless the character designs were made by americans. :3

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]jbramx2
2009-01-15 06:54 am UTC (link)
As I have mentioned that... "(yes, written and designed by americans...".

Here, found it.

http://www.animationinsider.net/article.php?articleID=1587

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]shati
2009-01-14 10:37 pm UTC (link)
Yep -- my bad. I should have said that the character designs were created with a US audience in mind, as opposed to (for example) anime.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]rez_lo
2008-12-11 06:53 pm UTC (link)
THANK YOU.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]shati
2008-12-12 09:06 pm UTC (link)
Marginally more productive than yelling "WHAT ARE YOU BASING THAT ON" at my screen!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]kyuuketsukirui
2008-12-17 02:36 pm UTC (link)
Here via [info]coffeeandink. Great post. I made a similar one myself the other day, though I think I was a lot less coherent.

I never get how people insist that anime characters "look white", and it has been a pet peeve of mine for years and years and years, trying to tell people that no, you idiot, they look like cartoons. Do the Simpsons or South Park or whatever look like white people to you? Really? Because I have never seen any human being that looks like that. Yet of course no one has a problem immediately and unquestioningly accepting that they're meant to be white.

Of course it really doesn't help that so much anime is not just translated, but Americanised (read: whitewashed) so that even names and sometimes locations are no longer Japanese. But most of the people who still insist anime characters look white are not little kids who are just watching dubs on TV with no awareness of the fact that they came from Japan.

In conclusion: UGH. PEOPLE.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
responding to comments months later ...
[info]shati
2009-01-14 10:43 pm UTC (link)
Do the Simpsons or South Park or whatever look like white people to you? Really?

Heh. Good example.

It doesn't surprise me that many Americans are confused by anime character design. It irritates the shit out of me at this point, but it doesn't surprise me -- the US is pretty insulated in its pop culture, and there's a learning curve for visual language. But I am unpleasantly surprised that so many people can overlook cues that are actually geared toward them and see white children in Avatar.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]schiarire
2008-12-17 05:02 pm UTC (link)
Tongzhi totally never even saw this post! F-list conspiracy?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]shati
2009-01-14 10:44 pm UTC (link)
Clearly! Why, f-list??

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]holyschist
2008-12-17 05:55 pm UTC (link)
I heart you.

I also do not understand how anyone thinks ANY of the Avatar characters look white. (Okay, maybe if they've never watched an anime movie, even Princess Mononoke, in their lives. And are stupid. And I bet if PM were made live action, people would be wanting white actors....sigh.)

On the bright side, I totally want to watch the show now.

(Reply to this)


[info]generic_geek29
2008-12-18 11:43 pm UTC (link)
Lots of folks say Aang and Toph are white because they're eyes are round. That's funny I'm white and my eyes are not that round at all.

(Reply to this)

(48 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…